Curse

CKaz · Jul 31, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You can cast Balthazar's Rage and Grenth's Fingers doing 176 damage for a mere 20 energy and less than 10 second recharge.

:P Now thats what i call imbalanced!

Actually there's a 3rd you add for 30 energy and another 8 second recharge, Heart of Holy Flame. And of course all these have effects on the way out.

And you mention enchantment loss as a negative effect - how so when they heal, get energy, and have an 'on the way out' effect to boot? That's the thing, they went crazy.

So a typical CoP chain with intervention already on tap was

these 3 AoEs all nearby and chain casted very quickly
CoP
BIG health return, BIG energy return, all conds off, all hexes off, enemies burning, crippled, your ready to resume shortly.

I think it's a bigger gaff than the D/A miss attacks myself, but good they fixed that one quickly. They *really* have to address this though.

Quite frankly as these new primaries get sweeter and sweeter it'd be nice if they look at a couple of the ones that simply aren't like strength and energy storage. Interesting how many of the cores have to work pretty hard on energy management while tools seem to be getting easier and simpler (and even health to boot for the Dervish, a first!).

There's a reason you saw sword or axe + energy, offhand focus D/Mos running around anywhere - current classes could only dream of the damage, energy return, and health return these guys were getting.

Retribution X · Jul 31, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

get 6 warriors around one, SS+Empathy+insidious parasite=GGKKIMANOOBTHXBAI

Wyldchild777 · Jul 31, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Greetings,

Having played the dervish premade Melandru's Prophet in both Random Arenas and Alliance Battles, I felt the need to chime in on this topic.

The first topic to discuss is Contemplation of Purity. That skill removing ALL enchants is just simply way too abusable with the dervish (and any future enchants that trigger on ending).
n my mind's eye, I see a dervish's skillbar containing 6 enchants, CoP, and res sig. The dervish simply cycles 3 enchants, CoPs, does the next 3 enchants, CoPs, rinse & repeat.
The idea that I have to support is for the CoP enchant removal to be based on Divine Favor ranks. Now, as far as the actual numbers, that requires more understanding of the interaction of all skills than I have. However, I'll go ahead and put forward a number as a starting point:

Contemplation of Purity 5e 1/4cast 10cycle
Skill. Lose 1 enchantment for every 2 ranks of Divine Favor. For each one lost...

This would still allow a typical monk using this skill to have the use of 4-8 enchantments (8-16 Divine Favor), depending on that monk's build.
Now, as I hinted earlier, I don't claim to have a full understanding of the interaction of all skills, but this seems like a fairly balanced change to CoP. Also, I'm not aware of any other monk secondaries that use CoP as a standard part of their build. If there is, then my idea might need further tweaking.

The second topic I wish to touch on is the Mysticism attribute. I don't see a problem with this attribute giving health and energy. If taking into consideration the fact that dervishes channel, and imbue themselves with, the very essence of the gods (ref. the Avatar elites), it makes sense to me that the same essence leave its mark on the dervish. The essence fills the dervish and rejuvenates them. This is represented as a health and energy gain.
Now, as for the actual numbers of how much health and energy the dervish gains, I'm not too sure about. Certainly, it might seem overpowered, but is that because of Mysticism alone, or is it because of the skills that each dervish was using? My bet is on the skills. I say that the number gains from Mysticism be left alone.

Let's keep up this thread of ideas about the dervish. Also, perhaps, start up another thread about Paragons to discuss their pros/cons too. I'm sure that amongst all the dervishes, there was enough people playing Paragons for a decent discussion to take place. If we present enough well-thought ideas, supported by reasons, then ANet will more than likely pay attention and incorporate the ideas into the balancing of the two new classes.

Merry meet, merry met, merry meet again,
Wyldchild777

TheLogicTrain · Jul 31, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Hello everyone,

I'm kind of new to the forums but I had a thought about the enchanment AoE which seems to be what everyone is worried about. What if instead of changing anything else they simply make it so that the AoE damage only hits for max if it expires completely. In other words make it so that the damage done is directly proportionate to the amount of time the enchantment is on them. I haven't done the math but it seems to me that it would balance things quite well without totally destroying it's usefulness. Let me know what you guys think.

Retribution X · Jul 31, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Ahh god. I love Lingering curse... And scourge healing... and then ench remover. boy they get SO friggen mad.

Curse You · Jul 31, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Hmm, Dervishes deal high SPIKE damage, use CONDITIONS to help them kill, and have to ENCHANT themselves...

Now let's see, where did I put that brain of mine... Oh there it is.

Try this; Monk spamming Protective Spirit/using Protective Bond, Monk or Ritualist spamming Martyr, and a necro using Well of the Profane, Desicrate Enchantments and Defile Enchantments.

Now I see a group that is unaffected by the high damage, never has conditions on them for longer than 5 seconds, and keeps enchantments off the dervish while dealing lots of damage when they are enchanted.

So don't tell me that there are no good counters to Dervishes.

That being said, I do think that Derivish's Primary Artibute needs some reworking. It seems to be the most powerful and useful Primary of all. Imagine if Necromancers got energy AND health every time something died. Or if Elementalists could raise their max energy AND health. Maybe monks should get healed by divine favour everytime they cast somthing on an ally.

It would probably be best to make Mysticism ONLY give the Dervishes energy, seeing how no other profession can gain health out of "no-where".

Former Ruling · Jul 31, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Alot of people are going to broad on their balancing...You Don't Balance a problem, you Balance the cause of the problem.

The problem lays in the fact that the Dervish Enchantments are too good...

I mean a monk could already stack enchantments on herself and CoP them off to clean all conditions and hexes, and go back to full health...But what would it Do other than that? It isn't a practical move because it adds nothing to the battle..

A dervish on the other hand, wihle doing this, is Spreading conditions like a madman, and doing loads of Armor Ignoring AoE Dmg...

Look at Balthazar's Rage for a second...104 AoE Armor Ignoring dmg on a 3/4 cast and 5 recharge...

CKaz · Jul 31, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by easyg

Anyway, I digress. 60 AL armour....yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

With that extra hp chest and +40 armor/33% movement speed close to half the time with an unstrippable elite form, that'd just have them at 100...

I don't think it's the armor, it's really the mechanic of what they can do with enchantments. Big damage, fast casts, cheap costs, effects on the way out on top of their primary on top of synergies of their own skills or, most obviously and abusively, with CoP.

Guess we'll see.

But right now they seem to be really too good at too many things.

Aug · Jul 31, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Hmm, Dervishes deal high SPIKE damage, use CONDITIONS to help them kill, and have to ENCHANT themselves...

Now let's see, where did I put that brain of mine... Oh there it is.

Try this; Monk spamming Protective Spirit/using Protective Bond, Monk or Ritualist spamming Martyr, and a necro using Well of the Profane, Desicrate Enchantments and Defile Enchantments.

Now I see a group that is unaffected by the high damage, never has conditions on them for longer than 5 seconds, and keeps enchantments off the dervish while dealing lots of damage when they are enchanted.

So don't tell me that there are no good counters to Dervishes.

So, somehow your Monks' enchants aren't affected by Well of Profane, yet the Dervishes' are? I think not.

Not to mention you can't Prot Spirit everyone. And the Dervish damage is AoE; and not a small AoE... it's pretty large radius. It only takes 3 different AoE chains (Balth's Rage, Grenth's Fingers, Heart of the Holy Flame) to kill pretty much anyone, as your stacked with like -9 degen at the end of it, as well.

Eclair · Jul 31, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Nerf the class too much and they might as well just not include the class in the first place.

Contemplation should be reworked, but other than a few minor tweaks, the Dervish skills should be left as it is.

I generally think its better to buff what's weak rather than nerf what's good. Balance can be created in both a high powered playing field and a low powered playing field, but the high powered playing field is so much more fun ^^

Dragonblood · Jul 31, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saix The Spartan

LEAVE THE ARMOR ALONE! One thing you gusy got to understand it's a BETA! Another thing is..There are going to be 'Anti-Derv' Skills for the other classes!! Or did you forget the other classes get new skills...

I got to say that everything in your post is so true.

PEOPLE remember this was only a BETA TEST & not the final release. And the next Preview(Beta Test) will be for PvE, where we all will see what changes Anet has start doing.

Then when Nightfall is released, we all will see how different the changes where from the PvP beta to PvE beta to final game.

So please stop with the nerfing chants, & wait an see what Anet does.

Retribution X · Jul 31, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

So, somehow your Monks' enchants aren't affected by Well of Profane, yet the Dervishes' are? I think not.

Wells are allied. Why would anyone ever use Well Of Power and Well Of blood if it healed the enemy?

Burakus Lightwing · Jul 31, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Well, I certainly didn't mean to start an up roar with my comments on CoP. Trust me I know just how useful this skill is when playing a monk.
So I have another suggestion that may help that issue, but it would not help the issue mentioned by Lyra Song.
This is kind of out there but, what if Anet could implement a system in which skills/spells from one class's PRIMARY attribute could NOT be used by another class. Now, without being able to put points in there anyway most people shouldn't be running these skills, at least not effectively. So by restricting that class's primary skills to only that class, you could solve a portion of the problem.

Saix The Spartan · Jul 31, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLogicTrain

Hello everyone,

I'm kind of new to the forums but I had a thought about the enchanment AoE which seems to be what everyone is worried about. What if instead of changing anything else they simply make it so that the AoE damage only hits for max if it expires completely. In other words make it so that the damage done is directly proportionate to the amount of time the enchantment is on them. I haven't done the math but it seems to me that it would balance things quite well without totally destroying it's usefulness. Let me know what you guys think.

Wow, that just might be one of the BEST if not the BEST idea i have heard..IF i'm understanding it right.

lyra_song · Jul 31, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLogicTrain

Hello everyone,

I'm kind of new to the forums but I had a thought about the enchanment AoE which seems to be what everyone is worried about. What if instead of changing anything else they simply make it so that the AoE damage only hits for max if it expires completely. In other words make it so that the damage done is directly proportionate to the amount of time the enchantment is on them. I haven't done the math but it seems to me that it would balance things quite well without totally destroying it's usefulness. Let me know what you guys think.

Balthazar's Rage activates the 88 armor ignoring damage at the beginning of the enchantment.

however i think that idea works fine specifically for the enchantments that affect only after they end.

Mighty Hero · Jul 31, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I have not seen alot of threads focusing on paragon except alot of threads are firing at dervish because they got beaten badly in arenas by Dervishes, but Dervish and paragon definitely need a few minor modifications.

I wonder why paragon's armor has 80 def with 10 ele def and 10 fire or cold def, and dervish armor got only 70 def? Paragon is a backline supporter for sake. it is capable of dealing damages, healing others and dealing conditions. Why paragon needs 80 def anyway? Monk is a backline supporter also. Does that mean monk's armor need to be 80 defense with ele def too?

Dervish works wonderfully in number similar to smiting monks, but with or without an avartar skill and with 70 def armor, Dervish would be like an assassin (useless profession). It will get interrupted while trying to use a skill. Eventually, Dervish would be a sitting duck during recharge time. Dervish's def armor should be 80 plus 10 ele def and 10 fire def or 10 cold def since dervish will be the frontliner up against monsters and any things.

Definitely Dervish and Paragon are hot hot hot

Mighty Hero · Jul 31, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

deleted double post.

Zuranthium · Jul 31, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

The Mysticism attribute is really all that needs to be nerfed, imo. It should only be 1 mana for every 4 ranks and 2 health per rank (or a % basis like Ranger Expertise).

CoP in general does need another 5 second increase in the recharge time.

For Paragons those spears should go a bit slower for attack speed. Lightning Spear was also ridiculous as well with a 2 second recharge.

merdle · Jul 31, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Sadly I think that most people on here think that if you make the dervish not broken, then you've made them useless. That's why you'll see them defend any part of the dervish that makes them highly abusable.

One, I don't know who said it, but the Avatars are fine. It's pretty much the only elites that they have as of yet, and outside of melandru most of them are just two other skills merged into one with a massive recharge. (120 seconds)

As for the AoE enchants, I think it would be fine to cut the damage in half. 40 or so damage, + conditions or healing when they come off. Before this weekend, people would have loved to get their hands on such a skill. But of course now people will think that's taking nerfing too far.

Lastly, either the point requirements for Mysticism needs to go up alittle bit (lessening the healing and energy gain) or the recharge on many enchants needs to go up. So that the removal and reapplication of them is Useable, not ABuseable.

On top of that, increasing the energy cost of the more effective ones to 10 would be useful. For a class that regains energy, an increase in energy cost is nothing. People think it's okay that their skills pretty much cost nothing? 5 nrg skill that removes an enchant, effectively giving 5 nrg + health?

bobrath · Jul 31, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Why not tie CoP enchantment removal to the number of conditions/hexes on the caster? So if a dervish has no hexes or conditions on them, CoP would remove nothing.

This would preserve the utility of CoP for monks for self preservation without jumping through hoops to recategorize Dervish enchantments.

On a different track, modify dervish enchantments do that they only do the expiration effect when they are ended by a dervish skill, enemy removal, or by naturally expiring. Much more difficult concept to understand and code, but it would keep the concept of a dervish intact while removing the CoP abuse.